Curse

Series · Apr 21, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynnrose

You said yourself that you are choosing not to use any secondary skills. There are multiple such skills that would absolutely complement a necro bar. By choosing not to take advantage of those skills, you are truly gimping your bar. That's not an assumption -- it's a fact based on the very words in your post.

If a profession is gimped because he doesn't use a specific secondary profession (ele or mesmer, in this case most likely), there is something wrong with the profession. No primary profession should have to rely on a secondary to be able to function.

Shinjinbukai · Apr 21, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Just make it so necro's do not gain energy from spirits or minions, fixes it at once.

Shadow of Light · Apr 21, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Mesmers are already quite useful in PvE, it's just that non-mesmers tend to be far too intellectually challenged to realize this simple fact.

QFT.

I don't believe Mesmers need to be improved. It's nice that ANet is looking at it, however. Mesmer is a behind-the-scenes class that a lot of players don't appreciate until they (successfully) play one for themselves.

In PvE There is always demand for warriors (meatshields), elementalists (nukers), monks (healer/pro), rangers (trapper party! barrage party!) and necros (mm/ss/bip etc..), to cover the core classes.

To be honest, though, I had a harder time finding a party when I was playing an assassin.

Lynnrose · Apr 21, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

If a profession is gimped because he doesn't use a specific secondary profession (ele or mesmer, in this case most likely), there is something wrong with the profession. No primary profession should have to rely on a secondary to be able to function.

That's not even remotely true. There are very few skill bars from any primary profession that can't be improved via the use of at least one secondary skill. It's not a matter of his (or any necro's) bar being rendered useless because of a lack of secondary profession, it's simply that choosing to not use a secondary as a form of protest against the SR change (or as a means of roleplaying a "pure" necro) very likely results in suboptimal play.

Travek Lavv · Apr 21, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

dont hope for Mesmers to be decent in pvE until new skills from GW:EN come out.

I didnt read the whole thread so someone may have already said this but....

There will only be 150 new skills in GW:EN, and 50 of them will be pve only skills (which will prolly be related to the glipses of the new races we will see, or various non profession skills like LB signet ect)

so thats 100 new skills, which seems liek a lot...but

theres ten classes, so that means only about 10 skills per class....
that doesnt seem like much, and to make it worse when you divide by 5 (4 attributes, and the unlinked category), thats only two new skills per attribute....which is...hardly...any...at all..

On the other hand, I can see why Anet wants to buff mesmers for pve.
Theres no class Id rather NOT go up against one on one than a mesmer, as they can defeat just about anyone one on one, with the right set of skills....however....as far as pve goes..they simply dont have the big bulging muscles of warriors....or the wide ranging death swath aoe of eles. they cant really raise you an army, and they cant send barrage after barrage of arrows at the enemy. also, they are not especially adept at protecting themselves and are relatively soft targets in pve.
Their role in pve, besides perhaps making bosses...really...easy, is undefined. Just about anything they can do effectively in pvp, a warrior or ele can do with brute force in pve. Sure a mesmer can shut down a monk and keep it from healing, but a warrior calling a target and putting pressure on that same monk in pve can get the job done just as well. Pve doesnt take as much precision and skill as pvp does, nor as much focus. the mesmer is all about focus and precision, and to all those muscular warriors looking to get masters reward on that hard mission, they just look like a burden. so yes, i can see why anet feels it needs to give out a helping hand to our mesmer friends.

darted · Apr 21, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

Thank you Gaile for bringing this delightful news to the Mesmer community.
On behalf of all Mesmers I say; Thank you all that will do Mesmers more attractive in PVE.

Agreed. I seldom have a problem in PVE with my Mesmer - unless I am trying to get a group outside of my circle of friends or guild mates.

As far as the Necro goes. I would have to say, that I agree that something was probably needing done. My necro never had energy issues. However, I would have to agree with a previous poster that just removing minions and spirits at least at first would probably have been a good first step. The five seconds is inelegant and a pain to monitor.

jayce · Apr 21, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

last off topic post from me as this probably ties a record for the number of posts in one thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynnrose

You said yourself that you are choosing not to use any secondary skills. There are multiple such skills that would absolutely complement a necro bar. By choosing not to take advantage of those skills, you are truly gimping your bar. That's not an assumption -- it's a fact based on the very words in your post.

I actually don't believe SR is balanced. In fact, I think it needs to be changed so that it doesn't trigger at all from the death of spirits (and perhaps even minions). By releasing a spirit-generating class in Factions without thinking things through, ANet created a PvP balance problem that has been exploited in multiple gimmick builds (as Ensign has already pointed out). This fix feels more like a clunky stopgap than a good fix, but it's better than how it was when necros had absolutely no concern about energy in many situations. That type of broken mechanic creates a lazy class of players and renders PvP far less enjoyable. Those who choose not to adapt to the changes are only hurting themselves and those who group with them.

Thanks for the invite to Ft. Aspenwood. I know that's serious business, but PvE Luxon/Kurzick faction means nothing to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynnrose

That's not even remotely true. There are very few skill bars from any primary profession that can't be improved via the use of at least one secondary skill. It's not a matter of his (or any necro's) bar being rendered useless because of a lack of secondary profession, it's simply that choosing to not use a secondary as a form of protest against the SR change (or as a means of roleplaying a "pure" necro) very likely results in suboptimal play.

you dont get it do you? you must really be a @#$% up. and that's not an assumption -- it's a fact based on the tone of your post and your failed attempt to desprately keep the leetness from seaping out your aura. it was never an issue about me using secondary skills to compliment my necromancer skills. its a matter of me choosing to play the game how i want to, not how you or anyone else would like me to. what you call an advantage, i call it hinder, because i would have to take points away from my primary attributes to put into secondary, which i would never be able to use as effective as that of the primary attibutes. but then you already know this. what i don't understand is why you keep pushing for me or players like me to conform to your style of play? i am not your average necromancer. btw, that wasn't an invite. me choosing to use only primary attribute skills was never based on protest of the recent SR change. it was base on trial and error and overall what works best for me, not you or anyone else. it was a decision i made not long after the release of GW.

Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

HolyHawk · Apr 21, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

You must be absolutely crazy. I finished Vanquisher for Old Ascalon with Olias and Norgu in an hour with 0 deaths, it was an absolute breeze.

Just because you can't figure out how to make them work doesn't mean they're broken.

That's true, I never felt so usefull in pve like I feel now; I vanquished 3 areas in ascalon area so far with olias, tahlkora, koss and me as a mesmer. Died a few times in areas that had aoe spells because heros don't kite, and when you do, they stop healing/attacking and follow you. And I am certain that pve guilds that vanquish with real people should have no problems if they use these classes as well.

Series · Apr 21, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynnrose

That's not even remotely true. There are very few skill bars from any primary profession that can't be improved via the use of at least one secondary skill. It's not a matter of his (or any necro's) bar being rendered useless because of a lack of secondary profession, it's simply that choosing to not use a secondary as a form of protest against the SR change (or as a means of roleplaying a "pure" necro) very likely results in suboptimal play.

You misread me. I said *specific*. If a necro doesn't go /E or /Me for e-management, he is gimped according to your last post (really, what other professions have worthy e-management for a secondary? heck, even GoLE isn't great anymore).

michelle mal · Apr 22, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

It must be a matter of perception...my mesmer has no problem in PvE, using my (well equipped) heros and henchies. The fact that you have to plan what skills to take and when to use them is part of the mesmer appeal. Make them any stronger, and it might get boring, like ele. nuker.

Lynnrose · Apr 22, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

You misread me. I said *specific*. If a necro doesn't go /E or /Me for e-management, he is gimped according to your last post (really, what other professions have worthy e-management for a secondary? heck, even GoLE isn't great anymore).

Jayce's last post made my point for me, so I'll join him in discontinuing that discussion. As for your post, I didn't misread anything. In fact, you're not fully understanding what I said. There are skills from nearly all classes that can improve a necro bar, depending on the situation. You're probably best off taking /E or /Me for energy skills, true, but you could also take interrupts, prot skills, hex removal/avoidance, etc. My post was pretty clear -- it's going to be the rare bar that cannot be improved with the introduction of one or more secondary skills. Even Jayce's concern about changing attributes doesn't hold water because there are great skills like Web of Disruption, Holy Veil, etc., that require no attribute point spec to be 100% effective. One thing we can all agree on -- this has moved far off topic (although, IMO, it's not been without value).

Bread Fan · Apr 22, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

ArenaNet has noted that players who choose Mesmer as a profession feel that they are not invited into parties as often as other professions, and the design team feels that this impression is probably correct. Here are three reasons that this might happen:

The reason is almost all PvE players are noobs and think button smashing searing flames is the way to go (or some other aoe). They also think lets grab us healing monks and hope for the best where as a mesmer could completely shut down casters and melee making the missions go smoothly.

Cyan Hydrick · Apr 24, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

My soul reaping mechanics proposal

Soul reaping
You gain [soul reaping level] seconds of +3 pips of energy whenever a creature near you dies. Due to the artificial nature of summoned creatures, they give 0+1 pips of energy for each 5 levels of that creature (max 3 pips).

Advantages :
- Energy input limited by the 10 pips cap.
- low level spirits/minions (lvl 1-4) don't give advantage anymore.
- no deaths are ignored (duration is updated after each death)

Trakata · Apr 24, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The word from Lead Designer James Phinney on Mesmers is that the designers are going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a "Mesmer-themed way." The Mesmer will never become a pure damage-dealer, not at all! But the team wants to look at an increase in both scope and damage while considering how to improve the lot of Mesmers in PvE.

Sounds great. Make it so I can get a group in Domain, please.

Nekretaal · Apr 24, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

You must be absolutely crazy. I finished Vanquisher for Old Ascalon with Olias and Norgu in an hour with 0 deaths, it was an absolute breeze.

Old Ascalon is practically the Noob area of guild wars. There's even some presearing AI left on enemies who were previously level 3 or less. Soul reaping concerns dont matter because mobs come in groups of 3 or less. The only problematic skill in the whole area is healing hands, and that can be solved with an enchantment remover.

How about you take olias and Norgu to Perdition Rock instead where mobs of 6-8 Flesh golems cast Flesh golem as soon as anything dies. There's too many in the mob for Norgu's shutdown to do much and fights last a long time because stuff is constanty dying due to the enemy minionmasters (who you can hardly beat to corpses because they cast 50% quicker than you).

Pakana · Apr 24, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

First: I'm really glad you look into the mesmer issue. You should have done so long ago. But better late than never. Unfortunately, the rest of my post has a different tone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Mesmers and PvE
ArenaNet has noted that players who choose Mesmer as a profession feel that they are not invited into parties as often as other professions, and the design team feels that this impression is probably correct.

Probably? Probably? P R O B A B L Y ? Understatement of the year! Don't any of you guys play PvE mesmers? I have stood hundreds of hours with my mesmer in ToA and Tombs trying to get in teams. 99.99% of time when I try to get in a team, I'm not accepted. If I stand all day without trying myself to get in teams, there is ZERO invitations! I have often the seek for party ad in the party seek window, but still no-one ever invites my mesmer. (And she looks absolutely stunning.. so not even eye candy is enough to get invitations).

Yes, I know Tombs has gone all B/P teams. I'm not trying to get in those. Trying to get in teams with those incredibly stubborn people (hooray for them!) who don't come there to play B/P.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The word from Lead Designer James Phinney on Mesmers is that the designers are going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a "Mesmer-themed way."

Oh, noes. Another easy way out. Give mesmer damage spells: I was afraid of this. God dammit you and your greedy bosses! Is damage your answer to everything? Considering the "hard mode" I'm guessing it is. You spoil the mesmerizing thing in mesmers with that kind of approach! Change the mob groups! Add healing/protection, resurrections, enchantment removals, enchantments, make them interruptable, reduce hex removals, remove natural recovering of hexes and conditions, reduce mob energy pool/regen. That's the best solution to the mesmer-issue. And nerf ranger interrupting (yeah that's really popular suggestion, but it has to be made).

I'm crying of frustration!

TabascoSauce · Apr 24, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakana

First: I'm really glad you look into the mesmer issue. You should have done so long ago. But better late than never. Unfortunately, the rest of my post has a different tone.

Lets talk mesmers, just for grins. Do you think new better skills will fix the mesmer problem in groups in PvE?

The mesmer skillsets are awesome, and based on an unscientific survey they are the most popular secondary class. I think that rules out the skills as to the reason mesmers are not wanted in PvE. If mes secondary is that popular, then there must be something awesome in those skills, if you know what I mean.

What does that leave? What can a Mesmer primary get that a mes secondary not? (or better phrased, what can a mes secondary not get, and not miss for not getting it?) Fast Casting.

What does Fast Casting bring to PvE, when compared to other primaries like Elementalist extra energy? Is there any advantage to FC when it is put in comparison in PvE? (I think the answer is no) If the usual 3 Warr/Monk/Ele can do a job simply, then why get the same result with a mesmer in a more complex fashion?

For Mesmers to get love, Fast Casting needs to be buffed.

Whoops, how will that affect PvP?

(And as a shameless plug, they have now reduced Necros to the same category, an awesome secondary but bad primary. Why count a timer when the Ele has 90+ energy and energy management skills to keep raising minions?)

Just food for thought.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Nigel Strange · Apr 25, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

What many people fail to take into account is the plight of the poor minion master. It is true: with energy, it is feast or famine, but that is much like the natural world. When a buffalo dies in the desert, the crows are happy and fat, but how long do they have to wait for that animal to die? Necros have not had much difficulty with energy. This is one of the things about diversity that you have to get used to: we're not all the same. You want to promote diversity, don't you?

But we all face challenges.

We must compete with one another for a limited commodity: corpses. There is only a small number of bodies to use for anything, and if you can't exploit it faster than the necro on the other side, you lose everything. If you don't have enough energy to raise a minion when someone dies, then someone else will get that corpse to use it for whatever end they want, and if you're the party necro in PVE, and the enemy has five or six necros. So: we didn't have to worry so much about energy management, but we DID have to worry about working the bodies.

Also, do not forget that many creatures do not leave bodies, so if you're a MM, you have to make the bonies last through a battle without refreshment. In some areas, you can't even play as a MM. The minions are underpowered for the higher level areas, and unlike other monsters, they don't move out of AoE.

Also: bodies mysteriously vanish in an amazing 45 second. If you have to wait 15 seconds for vamp horror to become available again, you might get two off. If you ALSO have to wait for your energy to come back, a lot of bodies are going to be gone before you get the chance to use them. Let us not forget that the party often loses patience with MMs who have to sit there and wait for a time to either raise a body or go through the BOTM > Heal > BOTM ritual, just to get a few more yards out of the bonies.

The walking minions also decompose at an alarming rate. You have to spend an enormous amount of energy and HEALTH to keep them going.

Let's face it: if MMs were so powerful, nobody would be able to play anything else. The fact is, we're a dying breed. We're the most consistently enervated character class I've seen, except maybe for Mesmers, you can already see how this half-time rule-changing of ANETS has affected their playability in PVE.

So no: I do not think it's fair to make us compete for a limited resource AND make it harder for us to use our renewable resource. Please do not continue to weaken this class until it disappears from the game. I don't want to be a WAMO, and if ANET makes this the only viable character class after nerfing everyone who is "different," I'll just stop playing.

Soul Echo · Apr 25, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I don't play my necro much as an MM, prefer to let Whisper do it, but I did experiment with a mission the other day using my regular MM build. Didn't really notice a big difference other than occasionally I had to raise cheaper types of bonies. That used to happen anyway once in a while, which is why I had the cheaper bonies skill on my bar.

I would like to see a better way of targeting/commanding bonies. When playing a MM, I simply don't have time to point and click bonies for Death Nova the way Whisper does. Also, since sometimes it is preferable to have bonies in front (but not the MM!), would be nice to have a bonies flag on my compass!

Crimso · Apr 25, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

Old Ascalon is practically the Noob area of guild wars. There's even some presearing AI left on enemies who were previously level 3 or less. Soul reaping concerns dont matter because mobs come in groups of 3 or less. The only problematic skill in the whole area is healing hands, and that can be solved with an enchantment remover.

How about you take olias and Norgu to Perdition Rock instead where mobs of 6-8 Flesh golems cast Flesh golem as soon as anything dies. There's too many in the mob for Norgu's shutdown to do much and fights last a long time because stuff is constanty dying due to the enemy minionmasters (who you can hardly beat to corpses because they cast 50% quicker than you).

yeah the mesmer skills are useful in hard mode in the earlier areas(on my mesmer I found the shutdown and skills like emapthy useful on small mob numbers it was simple to do the missions.) but in places like perdition rock with no shut down in aoe mesmers could be replaced with any other class for better results (the flesh golems summon bone minions not flesh golems but this actually makes it worse for norgu as he'll put empathy on bone minions rarther then focusing on the flesh golems unless you target them for him).